UNKNOWN: 0:00

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 0:17

Welcome to another episode, the place where we talk about kids' ministry and take a peek behind the scenes. We try to share a little bit of what we've learned that works for us and some of our failures so you can avoid them. We release a new episode every Friday, and this is your Backstage Pass to see the magic or disaster that happens behind the scenes of our kids' ministry. I'm your host, Gabe Baker, and today I'm joined by Brother Miles. How's it going? It's going good. Thank you for having me again. Yeah. It hasn't been too long since you've been on this time, so that's good. Yeah. So what are we talking about today? We are talking about the perfect position. The perfect position. So most of us, you know, probably have an idea of the quote unquote perfect job or even like maybe a position within the company that we work for or whatever. So we have those specific maybe position that seems like, oh man, if I could just have that. So I remember a friend of mine, this is years ago, she was telling me about her four-year-old son. And so they were at the store and they were checking out and he had like one of those little plastic fireman hats, you know, he had one of those on and the cashier asked him, what do you want to be when you grow up? You know? And he's like a fireman. And then he paused and they're just like, oh, you know, that's cute. You know, fireman. And he's like, or a dog. So fireman to a dog, this kid sounds like he was destined to be in Sunday school. Yeah. Sunday school staff. So in Sunday school and just like even church ministry, there are many jobs and most of us wear more than one hat. I know like I wear several hats here. Yeah. And I would say that most children's ministry workers do, you know. And so when you're trying to overcome a challenge, there's the concept of like throwing everything to see what sticks. So pastor's really good at that, you know, approach it from all angles and see what works. So I think we should take this approach when it comes to children's ministry. So like if you're asked to be a dog instead of wearing the fireman's hat, be the best, absolutely the best dog you can be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 2:20

We need to be multifaceted, like you said.

SPEAKER_00: 2:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 2:24

I thought about Home Depot of all places. So Home Depot, I'm not sure if they're the ones that came up with the saying or not, but they say, we have the tool to get the job done for you.

SPEAKER_00: 2:36

Oh,

SPEAKER_01: 2:36

okay. Nice. And do you know what? Unfortunately, sometimes if we're a hammer, every single problem or situation, we think, oh, it's time to be the hammer again. Oh, yes. And let's break some stuff, but it's not always time to break some things and you're talking to an ex-carpenter

SPEAKER_00: 2:50

so i know exactly i know exactly what you mean

SPEAKER_01: 2:51

it's okay i this electrician here i got this one thing a tool i'll use that thing as a hammer i'll use it as cutter i'll use it as a even a little shovel at times but uh but it's like we want to be like that swiss army knife got so many different we're able to do so many different things so convenient yeah able to fulfill so many different roles just

SPEAKER_00: 3:11

all packed up in one of those things yes yeah

SPEAKER_01: 3:14

yeah it's it's very interesting yeah they're not It's not as very popular anymore, but like I got given one in gift when I first got into construction and I tried using it and then I'm like, okay, let's put this thing away. But it's always kind of stuck in my head that, man, it'd be real convenient to carry that thing around.

SPEAKER_00: 3:27

Yeah. And then there was the, now there's so many multi-tools, but Leatherman was a big one. Leatherman, yeah. So I remember when I was a kid, like you said, I think I was... Oh man, I think I was six or seven. I was pretty young and I got a knife, a Swiss army knife. And I had, I did something and I ended up cutting myself in the palm with it. And it didn't, like it hurt, you know, but more than anything, it freaked me out. Yeah. Because blood was everywhere. Yeah. And it scared me so bad. I ran to my mom, mom, I cut myself. Of course, you know, painted it up and said, she's a nurse now. So that's probably my But then, and then I remember when I grew up, I don't know, I was a teenager and I remember the Leatherman. Yeah. Cause I remember the one, at least the one I had, it was like, well, I think they're all like this where they fold up and they look like a butterfly knife. Yes. Yeah. And so, and then you open it and it's got the pliers or whatever. And then remember the Rambo knife? Did you ever see those? We called them Rambo knives. Yeah. The big, huge hunting knife or whatever. Yeah. Like K-Bar maybe or something. And then the handle unscrews and it's got like a compass on the top. And then you open it and it's got all these goodies inside, you know. It's got like a fishing line with a hook like that you would, I don't know, you'd have to be pretty woodsman to make that work. Matches, had some matches like in a plastic baggie. I can't remember all the stuff. It was pretty cool. But yeah, that's good. Be like a Swiss Army knife where you could just, yeah. And I, you know, we've talked about Um, I, I have talked about like having people be well-rounded in Sunday school and, and it's kind of like we talked about, in fact, remember when we talked about versatility versus specialty on the podcast just a few weeks ago. And so it is like that, that yin yang, you know, trying to figure that out. But I think the key with what we're talking about today, and I shouldn't have gave it away because we talked about on that podcast, we said we were going to talk about it again and be secret, but I think the key here is that it's when your pastor or your leader, it could even be, you know, depending on the hierarchy of your church, it might be your Sunday school director or whatever. But when your pastor is, is calling for you to clean the toilets, you'd be the Swiss army knife and you go clean the toilets to use that example, you know, instead of just being like, well, I don't, that's not what I don't clean toilets. I run the sound. That's what I do, you know? And so, and that's where I think even the dichotomy of specialty or versatility, you can still specialize but be willing to do some of those other things. I think that's a key thing. Brother Arter has a good lesson that he's taught. I think we did a video. I think it was some kind of video on it one time, but he talks about David and being the stones that were the stones in his pouch and likens David unto preacher sorry brother I'm totally blowing your message but it was so good and you reach in and we're the stones so whatever stone he grabs out of there we got to be ready yeah to to fell the giant so yeah that's good so I guess we're kind of covering that first point though the first point I have is is be available but the thing is be available and you will be used so if you're willing and available you will start to build a rep and you'll be used in the work of God. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 7:19

Funny you mentioned cleaning toilets. I mean, I know a lot of people don't like doing that, but there's just, at least for me personally, there's something so special about, do you know what? I get to help the church and I get to clean toilets. It's kind of a humbling thing, but it's also, it's extremely enjoyable that, okay, this is, okay, how can I help the kingdom of God today? Okay. All right. You need me to clean toilets? All right, I'll clean toilets. You need me to clean toilets? You need me to sweep up the floors. You need me to do whatever that, like you said, that opens and willing. It's just that, it's that heart of a servant. Yeah. And I've always tried to like strive for that.

SPEAKER_00: 7:54

Yeah, you have. Yeah. And it's noticed. And, you know, the thing is too, I think that, you know, that's just a favorite example in the toilets, you know, because everybody uses that. But I think that part of the, if we can get the concept of the joy part being that it's not that I'm glad I'm cleaning toilets because hey, everybody, here I go to clean these toilets. That's where like, you know, and we talk about stage all the time. So there's nothing wrong with stage, but that's the difference. Like I can serve, you know, using air quotes here, serve in the pulpit. Yeah. But that's a little bit more glamorous to use for lack of a better word. Whereas if I can serve and just know that God sees me and I'm just being consistent and faithful and doing what needs to be done and nobody notices it. And so that's, I think kind of like what you're saying, you know, is that joy is found in just knowing that I'm working in God's kingdom.

SPEAKER_01: 8:58

And there's such a power and consistency. I could go off on a tangent about that alone, but. Oh man, that's a podcast in itself. Yeah, it is. But somebody who was mentoring me once said that what you see behind a pulpit as far as a preacher goes in this regard, that's only about 10%, maybe 20% of actually what they do. So there's another 80% that nobody sees, nobody understands. A lot

SPEAKER_00: 9:23

of people think, I

SPEAKER_01: 9:24

know this may sound funny, but a lot of people think that pastors just sit around, eat fried chicken and eat bonbons. You spend any time around and anybody in ministry, it's a service of love. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 9:37

Yeah. And I know, I know that our pastor is not unique in this, but I will say just cause you know, he's our pastor. So I'm around our pastor works. I mean, he works hard. He doesn't, he doesn't work at a job anymore. He did for a long time, but he works just as hard as anybody working at a job every day. I mean, he's going, you know, constantly, I mean, you know, nonstop, just, he works hard and, and our, church has kind of that culture of we value work ethic, you know, we value hard work. And so then that comes from, it comes down the line from our pastor, you know. Yeah. Okay. So the other thing is I have fully invest. So, so just like, you know, we talked about in the beginning, in the opening, throwing everything to see what sticks. So we, we need to fully invest in the role to know if it sticks or not. Yeah. Especially if you're quote unquote pioneering the role, like doing it for the first time. And so what I mean by that is you can, you can like, Say somebody says, okay, you're going to be the dog. You know, you're going to be the dog this Sunday and you're not thrilled about it. Yeah. But if you don't give it your all, then you don't, you might say, well, I don't want to be the dog, but you don't know. You don't know if it's something that you could step into. Yeah. If you could enjoy it. And you don't know on the flip side, if you're asking somebody to be the dog, I'm just using that for an example, for the first time. as a more of a macro look at it, like since Sunday school and you're saying, okay, we're going to introduce this new character, the dog.

SPEAKER_01: 11:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 11:27

And I asked you to do it and you're not thrilled about it. So you don't give it your all. Well, now we don't really know if that works as a character or if it's just because you didn't give it your all. Yeah. You understand what I mean? Like if you're going to throw it, throw it hard.

SPEAKER_01: 11:40

Yeah, exactly. Like we could use this analogy and I think everybody could relate. It's like dieting. You ain't going to see the results unless you really put in the work and you, you, you, you don't cheat every day. single meal. You don't

SPEAKER_00: 11:50

cheat. Yeah. And then you're like, oh, that doesn't work. I did that

SPEAKER_01: 11:53

before. When you really didn't give it your all and put everything you had into it to see if it was going to be successful or not.

SPEAKER_00: 12:00

Yeah. And that's where I'm like too far the other way. Like if I, I'm not a cook at all, but if I cook something, you know, my wife is an amazing cook. I know every husband's supposed to say that, but she really is. She really is an amazing cook. And she like half the stuff she makes, she grabs a handful of this and throws it in and a pinch of that or whatever me, I'm like, I cook top ramen and I'm looking at the instructions. I, I, I measure, you know, what are three cups of water? I measure the, I get a measuring cup and pour the water in. I boil, I set a timer. I, you know, and so I'm too extreme the other way. And so, uh, you know, if it doesn't work, it's like, okay, that product is flawed because I did it exactly like it's said to do it. But I do think, um, And I, we might've mentioned this before. I do think that when, um, when you are, especially like I mentioned pioneering role or something, and just using that, for example, like in Sunday school, um, we recently brought in a new character that we're planning to have transcend themes, uh, Gary Gazette in our news theme. Okay. Yes. Yeah. So he'll be, he'll be actually in our new theme too. Um, like periodically, you know, that's cool. But if we had, and of course that was really well planned. Most of our characters, in fact, that transcend themes are just like off the cuff. Usually, you know, they came around and we're like, oh, let's keep that. Yeah. But if you don't like give it your all, if you don't do everything that you can with that character, with that song, with that whatever, then you're wasting time, especially if it's like a quote unquote test to see if it works. You're wasting your time because it's like, well, now you got to do it again because you didn't do it right in the first place. Like the diet thing. Yeah. army knife, that tool, or if you're going to be that stone in David's pouch, then give it your all, you know, you can't miss. So, and then be willing and all these kind of flow together, but be willing to fulfill the less than ideal positions. And so there's all kinds of needs in ministry. And if you fulfill those roles that are not popular, like the toilet cleaning or going back to the analogy of the dog, you I wrote a note that there's two things that can happen. You find that you actually enjoy it more than you thought. Like, oh, this is actually a lot cooler than I thought. I've had so many people tell me that with different, just different things. Yeah, just like, I'm trying to think of a good example. Well, I mean, one is with some people, I've had people act and it was more like they were like scared. It wasn't necessarily that they didn't want to do it so much, But then they got into it and they're like, oh, I really enjoy this. I like this. I remember a long time ago. I had stepped out. I had been out of Sunday school for, I had retired and then I got called out of retirement by pastor and I stepped back in. And I remember, um, I was just kind of feeling it out with the staff and everything. Brother, brother Arter was in staff and, uh, I had him act and I hadn't seen him act at all before that. Okay. And I had him act and, and he did a great job, but I remember him telling me he loved it. Yeah. Cause he hadn't like done it. I mean, I don't know if he hadn't done it at all, but he hadn't done it really, at least not since I had been in. And I had him act and he, you know, so it was like an eye opener for me because he was like, I loved doing that. It was so much fun. So you can find that you really enjoy it. And then the other part of it is that I believe God does bless faithfulness and consistency. And so if you're faithful in cleaning those toilets, eventually you will get that quote unquote better position, that one that you wanted so much. It's

SPEAKER_01: 16:33

like the scripture. I believe it's in Matthew. It says, be faithful over a few things and I'll make you a ruler over many things.

SPEAKER_00: 16:39

Yes. Yeah, that's good. I should head down those. We don't want to be too

SPEAKER_01: 16:45

spiritual though. It's just amazing. Yeah. sometimes like if you just sit back and you're just faithful and consistent, you'll look back and you'll be able to see, man, man, I've, I've grown a lot. I've, we've, we've seen improvement here and we've seen improvement there. I'm, we've seen growth. You just kind of like, uh, the analogy of the watching that, that rose, that rose in the garden, just like letting everything unfold and letting it take a flourish.

SPEAKER_00: 17:15

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think, I think that, you know, um, when I thought of that story about the fireman and the dog is just hilarious because as a parent, you're like, oh, a fireman, yeah, okay, so that's good. And then, or a dog, it's like, what? But it's such a good, like, you know, like I said, he's destined for Sunday school. It's such a broad perspective of like, we have, you know, all kinds of roles in ministry and Sunday school. So like in Sunday school, one of the unglamorous roles roles that we have is we call them facilitators. Yeah. Some people might refer to them as crowd control or whatever but they often we will have them do a small part also like they'll sing in the song or they'll be an actor in one scene. Sometimes they're not though. Sometimes they're just facilitators. It's not a very glamorous job but it's so needed. It

SPEAKER_01: 18:17

is extremely needed. It is very needed. It's one of those non-rewarding jobs but like yeah like there's been times where unfortunately both facilitators were out of their way out of the area and then i was up there doing some sort of object planet salvation or some sort of object collection and i could tell like they're getting a little rowdy and all that stuff i'm like so it's one of those things it's like nobody really wants to do it but it's it's needed

SPEAKER_00: 18:41

yeah well and so to explain kind of just for our audience um so we have if if you've been listening to this podcast at all you know that we're kind of do like a one room Sunday school ages five through 11 and it's kind of theater style. Um, And so what we try to do, it doesn't always work, but we try to have our actors up front not address the kids. Like if there's a behavior issue, it's a facilitator's job to do that. And so that is, if you do this type of Sunday school or you try to, that's something that's really needed is you need facilitators. And like, it depends, I guess, you know, obviously the bigger your class, the more facilitators you might need. When we do Kingdom Kids, conference at Summit which is coming up in a couple months it's really big so they have a facilitator for each section I think it's five and I think they might call them something else but it's basically they're responsible for a section you know and so like when we do it we usually have a couple facilitators and then what can happen is like what you said you're up front and both facilitators gone because if they're doing their job is one might have taken somebody to the restroom Yeah. Or had to take somebody out or whatever. And then the other one might be doing that small part. So they're back changing their costume. So now all of a sudden you have no facilitators. And so we try not to do that. We try to have somebody step in, you know, but, you know, things do slip through the cracks. And oh, before I forget, speaking of dog. Yes. So you were in. Yes, I was here. School, right?

UNKNOWN: 20:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 20:25

So, last week... Brother Kyle. So we did the story of Naboth, Naboth's Vineyard. And we did it in two parts. So it was two weeks back to back. So we did Naboth's Vineyard part one, part two. And so we were in part two and basically the prophet comes and tells Ahab, Elijah, I think it is, tells Ahab, you're gonna be eaten by dogs, Jezebel, they're gonna lick the blood. uh, your blood from the ground, you know, whatever. So it was about dogs. Yeah. So I come out and that's the end of the story, at least as far as we were going with it. Yeah. And so I come out to do Bible story, wrap up and then do lesson. And Kyle is supposed to be getting ready for altar call because he's the altar call lead. You know, he was, he was scheduled to be the altar call lead. So I'm out there wrapping up the story, uh, And so we have in Sunday school, we have this dog mask. Well, it's a whole costume, but it's a dog costume. But this mask, Brother Tyrell donated it, or maybe he's just letting us borrow it. I don't know. But it's so cool. The mouth, it's hard to explain, but the mouth moves when you move your mouth. And it's so realistic. I mean, it's just, it's really cool.

UNKNOWN: 21:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 21:55

Well, anyway, I'm doing wrap up for the Bible story. And Brother Kyle comes out with that dog mask on and he barked and whatever. And then he grabs his son, Hunter, grabs him and hauls him out backstage. And one of our younger ones that he's, I think he's our newest one. He just, he burst into tears. That was it for him. And he's been doing really good because he was crying a lot. He had been doing really good, but that was it. That was the last straw. Yeah. Oh, man. So I talked to his dad just the other day, the one that was crying. And he was, we were talking about something totally different. And he was asking me, he's like, oh, how's, you know, what's my son been doing? And I was like, oh, he's doing a lot better. Because he was, his grandma was having to come up and sit by him and stuff. Excuse me. And so I was like, oh, he's doing a lot better. And then I told him the story about that. He's like, oh. He said, well, he didn't tell me all that. All he said was, Brother Kyle came out with a dog mask. He was all mad. Brother Kyle came out with a dog mask, he said. Yeah. So we do have, I don't actually know if we even have firemen in Sunday school, but we do have dogs. We do have dogs

SPEAKER_01: 23:20

and we have

SPEAKER_00: 23:20

doctors. Yes. And we have doctors. Yeah. So I guess if a kid said, I want to be a doctor or dog, you can still be in Sunday school. Yep. Still qualifies. All right. Well, that leads us on, I guess, leads us on to our next point. So pass it on. And so my premise with this no is I guess in a couple ways but one if you don't like the role I don't mean pass it on like, okay, here you do it instead of me. I, I, you know, I don't want to do this. You have to do it, but train somebody or find somebody that likes to do that and train them, you know, that that's even better. And so, but one of the things too, that's, that's one side of it is like, if you're trying to, you know, if you want to get out of a role and let's see, I want to make sure I explain that. Right. I sound, I don't want to sound irresponsible, but, It's like this. It's kind of like, okay, this role is needed. Somebody has to do this to move the kingdom of God forward. This role needs to be done. And so rather than me, like the toilets need to be done. Now I do clean the toilets up here, but let's just use this as the answer. Let's say that you do that so that I don't have to. I'm the Sunday school director, quote unquote, whatever. And so you do that. And so rather than and you saying, you know what, I don't really want to do this anymore. You take it back over. Instead, you are training somebody to take your place. And it might be a long process because you want them to do as good of a job or better. And so you're training them, you know, with the pastor's blessing, with, you know, whoever, you know, so this is just an example of how you can pass something on, not irresponsibly, like, oh, I'm going to delegate because I don't want to do it. Not that way. Now, like I said, that was a long explanation and qualification there. But on the flip side, I have a sub note here is the best way– Boy, those kids are loud. Yeah. I think, you know, there was a podcast. Was that me and you when the kids were screaming? No, I think it was Brent. I don't think so. No. They were screaming. It was after, I think, Spanish Bible study or something. Oh, okay. Yeah. And they were just screaming. And sure enough, the mic did pick them up. So there's some kids being sirens right now. They're practicing their vocals. Yeah, they're practicing their vocals. Got kids choir here in a few minutes. So the best way to make yourself indispensable is to become dispensable. And so train others to do your job. So this is something I learned a long time ago. I think I learned this from John Maxwell, but this is something I learned a long time ago in even in work and work and especially in ministry is if. If you start teaching other people how to do your job, if your boss fires you or says, hey, we don't need you, they're very short-sighted. Yeah. Most of the time they see the value because it's like, okay, hey, we need you to, you know, you're an electrician. We need you to learn how to install ceiling fans. Yeah. And so you learn how to install feet. ceiling fans and then you take your apprentice or whoever and you teach them how to do it. And all of a sudden you don't have to do it anymore.

SPEAKER_01: 27:02

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 27:03

And so a good boss says, wow, that's valuable and puts you on something else. But it's not just valuable that it frees you up to do something else. It's valuable that you turn around and make yourself dispensable. Yeah. And so that's what we is, you know, we've talked about sustainability before and keep the wheels turning and all that. And that's kind of what it's about is if we can keep on training others and keep on bringing others up, you know, or closer to the core. however you want to say it, then we become indispensable because it's like, hey, that person is so valuable because they multiply. They multiply themselves by training people versus there's some people that are really valuable because they do one thing really well. But the most valuable is those that create other people that can do stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 27:58

That they're able to pour themselves into somebody else. Yes. Yeah, exactly. And especially like... In a mindset, I know this may, hopefully this doesn't come across negative, but sometimes in ministry, we're afraid, oh, I don't want to, or I've even seen on the job, oh, I don't want to teach this person because I don't want them to take my job.

SPEAKER_00: 28:18

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's short sighted on the worker's part. Yeah. Because it's, yeah. I think, like I said, any boss of any value will see like, oh, this, this guy is potential, you know? Yeah. I think it's, it's, you're growing up. And, and the, there's a level after that is the person that can develop other people that develop other people, you know, so you're developing leaders essentially. It's this big giant thing, continual thing of growth. Yes, exactly. All right. Well, to recap here, so be a Swiss army knife, army knife, be available and, and you will be used. If you're available, you will be used. There's so many roles. I mean, if, if you, you know, our church, has a culture of music, you know, a lot of music and singing and stuff, and our music is good. But there's people that can't sing, they can't play an instrument, but they're an integral part of the church. And so there's so many different roles that can be fulfilled, you know. And so if you're willing, you know, I just had a couple of young ladies ask me if they could be in Sunday school.

SPEAKER_01: 29:37

Okay. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00: 29:38

Yeah. And they're a little young, but I told them, you know, I'll put them on the list and, you know, we're going to do a training and everything. And so, um, but the key for them is going to be, they want to be in Sunday school. And I even kind of, I kind of gave them a prelude. I said, you know, what this would look like probably is it would start out with a small little piece here and there, you know, it might start out, maybe it starts out then, you know, we haven't really done this, but I've thought about it is maybe they come up after church and they clean. Okay. You know, that might be an apprenticeship, just kind of, you know, one of the, I, I've, I've told this story before and, um, uh, It's on Skyland, and she's part of our staff now. But she was pretty young. I can't remember. She's still young. I think she's 16 or about to be 16. But she wanted to be in Sunday school, and I kind of pushed it and pushed it. But the turning point or the tipping point, to use one of our podcast titles, the tipping point was one Sunday night at church, there was some really young kids praying in the altar, and she was right there praying. and praying hard with them. I took a picture of it. And I sent it to her mom, I think. But I was like, this is the deciding factor. Yes, you can be in Sunday school. And so it's kind of going back to the faithful and the small things. All right, that was a really long recap. So the next one is fully invest. So just give it everything. Yeah, give everything you got. Do a true test. And that true test is giving it everything. You're

SPEAKER_01: 31:19

never going to regret giving it everything. but you will regret giving it hardly anything.

SPEAKER_00: 31:23

Yes. Oh yeah, that's good. That's good. And we need it. We need to print that. And then be willing to fulfill those less than ideal positions. That's kind of hand in hand with that other one, but just be willing to, to fulfill those positions because if you can have the concept, you know, it's, it's kind of goes back to, it's not about me and what I want so much as it is. What is it going to help advance the kingdom of God? God what is going to help this ministry move forward what is my pastor need what is my church need what is my Sunday school ministry need then if I do that then I really think ultimately that one of those two things will happen either you'll find out I actually do enjoy doing this or you'll you'll be faithful in it and then eventually you'll get to do what you enjoy yeah and then pass it on best way to make your Self-indispensable is to become dispensable. So train others. Teach others to take your place. And model it so that they can teach others in addition, you know, to take their place. All right. Well, I think that's a wrap.