UNKNOWN 0:00

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Welcome to another episode, the place where we talk about kids' ministry and take a peek behind the scenes. We try to share a little bit of what we've learned that works for us and some of our failures so you can avoid them. We release a new episode every Friday, and this is your Backstage Pass to see the magic or disaster that happens behind the scenes of our kids' ministry. I'm your host, Gabe Baker, and today I'm joined by Brother Arter. How's it going?

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Good. How are you this evening?

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Good. I'm a little stuffed up, but, you know, no strong ends All right. Nice, nice. All right. Well, what are we talking about today? We're talking about

SPEAKER_00 0:52

the green grass syndrome.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Green grass syndrome. Yes. So- The old saying, the grass is greener on the other side of the fence has been around for a long time. And so getting ready for this, I did some quick research, and it looks like it's attributed to some Greek philosopher, and I'm not going to bother trying to pronounce his name. But the Bible has examples as well. And like that Greek philosopher, they're talking about like kind of what we're going to talk about today, about like farmers looking at another farmer's field. That's kind of the idea behind it. But I was thinking about this. Have you ever seen a cow like poking its head through the fence? And it's eaten, you know, it's like a wood fence or something. It's stretching its neck. Trying to get what's on the other side. Yeah. And there's grass on its side, like growing up to its neck. Like it's in the way. Right, right, right. You know, but then we eat the grass on the other side. That makes sense sometimes. Yeah. So there's just something about looking at other people or other ministries, other churches, and thinking that they've got it going on, that they've got it all together. If only we could just be like them. And so. So the premise today, while we should always strive to be better and it's totally fine gaining inspiration from others, don't forget what we have right in front of us. And because someone somewhere thinks that your grass is the greener grass.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Right. You know, and I think we fall into that sometimes, you know, seeing another children's ministry and saying, oh, man, I wish we could do that. Oh, yeah, absolutely. You know? But every, you know, and you know more than I do with the men that you fellowship with and what I've seen, everybody has a good part. Right. You know, and to say that, well, they have it all, they really don't have it all. Yeah, exactly. And the great thing that I've experienced going to one Sunday school seminar meeting is that everybody's grass is good. Exactly. Not necessarily better. It's just different. It's good. Yeah. And that's the great thing about this podcast and people all over the world listening to it is we can glean from each other. Exactly. Yes. Everybody's grass is green. Right. And we all have something to add to it. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. So it's not greener on the other side of the

SPEAKER_01 3:25

fence. Right. I just heard, it's funny. because, you know, I've been thinking about this topic and my daughter was playing like an Adventures in Odyssey and they do these, I don't know, on certain ones, maybe it's, I can't remember, but anyway, a certain series they do like these fake advertisements. Sure. And they're really funny. They're really good. But it was, it was TTYO, Tend to Your Own. And it was talking about this concept of the grass. Nice. And it even had a lawnmower in the background and stuff. And it was like, just use TTYO and water it every day. You know, it's perfect. Yeah. It was, it was, I was like, maybe we should insert that into this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Right. Get some copyright claims or

SPEAKER_00 4:08

something. Yeah. You know, it's kind of, you know, the, the grass being greener, that idea, you know, I think it's in John 21 where Peter's walking with Jesus and he says, Hey, what about John? You know? And Jesus says, Hey, just worry about your own self. Just worry about your own self. Yeah. And, And, and don't worry about John, but you know, it's, we got to work on what we do good. Exactly. Yes. Well, what we do in our own grass. And like I said earlier, we all have something to add to kids ministry.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Yeah, absolutely. Oh yeah. That's something like you mentioned those on his school seminars. Um, man, that's something we learned. And I've talked to brother, uh, Phillip Booker a lot and he, he travels all over of course. And, uh, it was funny. Cause last time he was here last year, in fact, when he did a staff session for us, I was introducing him and I was introducing him basically as a Sunday school guru. Cause that's what he is. He hates that, but that's what he is. But he, it was funny cause he was telling me later, he was saying, you know, he said, really, he said, you, you mentioned that I've seen all kinds of Sunday schools. He said, I, he said, and really, I haven't seen a bunch of Sunday schools in Sunday school operation. He said, because most of the time when he's traveling, he's doing special events. So he's either putting it on or like at our event, he's coming just, you know, to be a part of an event.

UNKNOWN 5:40

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Now ours, when we do the Sunday School Conference, we are pretty much running it like we do Sunday School. It's just longer, you know. But still, he has seen so many different operations and that's one thing that he said many times, even on his podcast, is that people do it different ways and it's not better, it's just different. There's a variety and that's good. And we talk about all the time that we need more apostolics to produce stuff. Well, that's what we need is we We need a variety within the apostolic realm that's given different VBS or all the different styles. So we kind of already talked about it, but starting on the outline, I have that it's not a competition. The Bible talks about not comparing ourselves amongst ourselves. And really, we should be competing against last year or last week even. Right. Do a better job. Yeah, of our own self. That's where – that's the competition part of it. Sure. Is that we should be competing and saying, okay, we want to do better than what we have ever done. And not looking at – you know, there's some churches that are – There's some churches that are a lot more active on social media than other churches. Like we're one that's not very active on social media currently. And so one could look at a church that's doing fine and they're really active on social media and it's just like, man, they've really got it going on. But there's all kinds of churches that are not nearly as active, but they have it going on. They have it going on. Yeah, you just, you know, you don't see it. And so, and that's where, you know, when you can interact with others in Sunday School conferences and seminars and different things, it's kind of neat to see. It's eye-opening to see, you know, you get to see those other perspectives. Right. And... Other tools being used. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You see other tools being used and get ideas that it's like, oh, I never... And we might do it a different way. Kingdom Kids Conference in Tennessee that's at the WPS Summit Conference. That one, I went for the first time last year and the way that they run that is actually very similar to our Sunday school because it's a full-on drama. It's continuous. I think it's three nights and it's a continuing storyline and that's how we do it on a macro level you know it's kind of a this is a conference and it's you know much bigger than our situation sure and it's it's really cool because a bunch of Sunday school experts you know right

SPEAKER_02 9:07

right

SPEAKER_01 9:07

but that style is very similar because of how we run our Sunday school you know how we have usually 16 weeks or whatever but we have a theme yeah and the theme is very strong and we have a storyline yeah and so and Bible story like we'll have a theme you know pirates or whatever we have our costumes and stuff but then every week we also have a bible story that's a full on story dramatized as well within the theme you know and so when I went to the kingdom kids it was the same thing it was it was this whole kingdom thing I was a bad knight I was one of the bad guys yeah and so yeah and so there's the evil you know kingdom and the good kingdom And then in that, we did some Bible stories too. And so it was really familiar. It was like, oh yeah, this is how we run Sunday school. Again, much larger scale, but it was really cool to see. So it was a long roundabout way to answer your question, but I think Brother Booker and them probably are pretty close. But again, I haven't seen a whole lot of Sunday schools either. Sure. But just from kind of a little bit of conversations I have with others, it seems like we're fairly unique in what we do. But, you know, I'm not sure, you know, there might be others. Our grass is green. Yeah, our grass is green. For us. Yes, for us. Exactly. Yeah, so it's not a competition. It's, you know, get better at what we do. And then realize what you have. And so if we're growing in size... Or if we're growing spiritually, if we're growing in our method, whatever, then we'll look around and realize that we've met some of our goals. You know, I've talked about this before. Like I had made a list on my phone of notes and I had made a list of like different things I wanted to do in Sunday school, like with the set. And like I had wanted to make, I think I want to make a waterfall. And then I had wanted to make a slide that went through a wall. And we did those. We

SPEAKER_00 11:27

did those. Yeah. We had a live river

SPEAKER_01 11:30

up here. Yes, yes. And it was really neat. I was telling Brother Kyle on another podcast, I was like, I was going through some notes. I was like, oh yeah, what's this? And I opened it up. I was like, oh, we did that. We did that. So here's one that I want to do. So this is, I'm making this public. This has been on my list. I want to do a slide that's kind of like a diving slide, but I want it to catapult. Like I want it to have a dip at the end where kind of sends you up in the air into a foam pit.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Wouldn't that be cool? That's a big deal. Yeah. That's a big deal. Yeah. I really want to do that. So I have to figure out, you know, I got to figure out some of the logistics. Well, your wheels are already turning off. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it won't be this next theme. It might be a little while before we do it, but yeah, that's, that's one of the things on my list. I think it'd be really fun. But anyway, so yeah, I, I have looked around. So here, here's another example. I was, when I was thinking about this and I wrote that note is i remember you know i i've grown up in the construction trade and um when i was younger i was working out in the field uh meaning that it wasn't a field but it was buildings and you know out in the elements and all of that and i remember i for a long time i hated it and i remember like dreaming about you know working in an office somewhere or whatever and and uh you know, driving a nice car, like a BMW or something, and just, you know, maybe even being still in the construction industry, all of this. Well, I don't know, it's been several years ago now when I kind of made the switch over, but I remember driving home. I was, unfortunately, hadn't worked pretty far away. I was in Seattle, but I was driving home after work, and it hit me. At the time, I was a project manager. I was working in an office. I was driving in a BMW. I remember that. And I was riding home and I was like... Hey, I did

SPEAKER_00 13:37

that.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

I've attained some things. I think it's so easy for us to, you know, and this is on like a personal level, but I think we can look at like the seasons or something. Like it's about summertime. And so we've been wanting summer. We'll be like, oh, I can't wait till summer. Summer hits, we're like, oh, I can't wait till winter, snow and everything. It's been

SPEAKER_00 14:28

raining for like

SPEAKER_01 14:29

a week. Yeah, yeah. And so it's like, look at where you're at now and realize, hey, this is pretty good. And that's why I mentioned that somebody else somewhere else is looking at your grass saying, oh, it's so green. It's greener over there. And to explain it, I don't mean it like that we're better than anybody. I don't mean it that way. I mean it like realize that you have attained some things. And so in your Sunday school, when you are looking at... maybe what we do or maybe what some of these other folks do, and not that we've attained a whole lot, but you've got something going on at your church, at your Sunday school, your ministry, wherever you are. most likely you have grown in some instance you know and so that's that's some of the things I guess like you know I want to do better I want to do more I'm hoping we can grow excuse me grow in our size I want to grow in spirituality and everything but man we've done some cool things you know we have an awesome Sunday school and I think it's important that we remember you know remember

SPEAKER_00 15:51

that right that's that's the You know, just in the time that I've been coming up to Sunday school, it seems like not very long, but it's probably been 10 years. Oh, yeah. You know, and seeing, you know, our church kids grow up and, you know, the bus kids grow up and some of them have been with us for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

You know, and that's, you know, that retention is also a victory.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Oh, yeah. It means they're wanting to come back.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Yeah.

UNKNOWN 16:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

And then like, yeah, some of our church kids are even, we've mentioned it before, but they're staff now. And they're actually

SPEAKER_00 16:31

the Sunday school.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Yeah. Which is awesome. Pretty awesome. Pretty awesome. My daughter, just before I came here, we had actually, my wife found this song. It's not even a kid's song, but it's, it's awesome. It's, it's kind of rocky, but it's a really cool song. And so we're like, yeah, let's do that in Sunday school too for August or something so she was at home doing motions and my little son Ashton who is seven just turned seven he's learning the motions see so he'll be able to teach it yeah exactly so yeah it's kind of cool oh drop my So I got another note. My other note here is let greener grass be an inspiration. And so, you know, no matter how good we get, how big we get, there's always somebody that's bigger, better, you know, on a personal level, but on a Sunday school level too. There's always going to be somebody that's doing something cool, you know, and that's fine. And so let it be an inspiration. Yeah, learn from it. Yeah, learn from it. And, you know, I mentioned this a while back, but I got to meet Brother Chris Bradshaw. He's out of Tennessee. And I got to meet him recently. We've been talking, doing some Zoom meetings and stuff, but I got to meet him in person and got to be with him at a conference where he was working in the altars with kids and just watching him. And there's other, I mean, Brother Booker, Brother Tyler Hodge, all these guys are just awesome. Awesome at praying kids through. But Brother Bradshaw, he has like... I guess a system, for lack of a better word, that he's like, you do this, this, this, ABC 1, 2, 3, you know, and it's just, it's awesome to see, you know, and so it's so inspiring for me to see some of those things, you know, so when you see like other ministries or other churches just like that, you know, what we mentioned earlier, have it going on, that can be an inspiration, you know, You

SPEAKER_00 18:45

know, and then, uh, you know, we've, we've had brother Booker here for a couple of years anyways, three years, maybe, um, you know, it, it's, you learn from the best, right?

UNKNOWN 19:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

You know, I know as an athlete 100 years ago, you know, to get stronger, you trained with someone that was stronger than you. Yes. You know, so that's why, you know, it's great that we go to these conferences and you're able to go back to Tennessee and have Brother Booker here. Oh, yeah. It's just a plus for us.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Yeah. What does the Bible say? Iron sharper than iron, right? And that is, that's totally why And Brother Booker's coming again this year. It's already on the schedule. That's why we do that, exactly. we get to not only, so he, he does a staff session before the conference on Wednesday night. And then he's here at the conference and he, he just jumps right in with us. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of times he goes places and he's running the show. And so here he could, but we kind of have a script and we're already going and he just, he jumps right in with both feet, you know, and it's, it's so cool. And so that's, it's, yeah, it's a lot of fun

SPEAKER_00 20:12

too. And the, The thing about having Brother Booker here with us, I mean, he's seasoned, you know, and I just remember we, I don't know if we were running out of time, but he just, God just took over and Brother Booker went with it and we had an outstanding altar call. Oh, yes. And it was right during his sleight of hand or just after his sleight of hand.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

I remember that too, because he started talking about his mom.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

His mom had, I believe, got, sick. And so he was talking about that and the, and the mood, the, the atmosphere shifted. I mean, it was the presence of God, but the atmosphere shifted. And he changed. Yeah. In the middle of the script. And that's the thing too. Side note is we, we have a script and we run off a script. We run off of timers and we can be kind of, uh, I don't know, micromanaging, I guess sometimes, you know, and, and sometimes it's a good thing. We're, we're running on a timer and we're like, okay, let's make this happen. The music should be punchy, should be hitting right here. But when the power of God hits, the script goes out the window. And, you know, that's because we don't ever want to forget why we're doing this. And I guess, really, that fits into what we're talking about. On a macro level, with the green grass is... All that lack of a better word, for lack of a better word, envy, all of that, you know, looking at others and saying, I wish this, I wish that. If you remember the purpose, what we're doing and why we're doing it, all that goes out the window. We're not worried about it. And it's just like, okay, oh, that's a cool idea. Yeah, that will help. That will help us move toward our mission. You know, like, oh, puppy shows. Okay, that will help us, you know.

UNKNOWN 22:08

you

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Object lesson, oh, that's a really good object lesson. That will help us move toward our mission, praying kids through or whatever it is. They're all, like you said earlier, tools. We look at other Sunday schools and they have tools that they do well. Like Brother Booker and them, they do a lot of object lessons. And I want to do more of that. We have done more lately, a little bit more than we've done in the past. puppet shows. I met Brother and Sister Breeden. I can't remember where they're from, but I met them and they do, they're big on puppets. I mean, they did, I think it was during COVID, they bought a whole puppet kit, started doing puppets and they had like other denominations reaching out to them for wanting, you know, like the puppet shows or scripts or something. Yeah. And so that's something I would like to do more of. We just- We just got the bin out the other day to figure out what we had. So, yeah, I want to do that. But I have a plan in mind. You don't have to worry. You don't have to do it. You might have to interact with some.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

I can interact, but just I'm not coordinated enough, I think, to do the speaking and the hand gyrations. Well, I

SPEAKER_01 23:28

got a plan, you know, get some young people involved in that a little bit. So, yeah, I think it'll be cool. We did one for youth. It was like a black gospel choir with puppets. It was pretty hilarious.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Yeah, I'm sure. It was awesome. I am sure. You know, as we're sitting here talking, you know, and utilizing the tools that we have, I just had this vision. You ever driven downtown or been driving somewhere and you see the snap-on truck?

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Oh, yeah,

SPEAKER_00 23:59

yeah. Parked in front of a garage or an auto body shop? Absolutely, yeah. You know, that's kind of, if we don't have the right tool, if they don't have the right tool, it's like, Hey, where's the snap on truck? Yeah. I've been

SPEAKER_01 24:11

on job sites where they ordered it.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Right. Yeah. You know, so it's kind of like, all right, we need some tools. Let's get brother Booker in here or, you know, and, and, uh, you know, it's kind of, that's just kind of what went through my mind. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

You know, that's our toolbox. That's our toolbox. If we have a need, then maybe someone can help us. Yeah, exactly. You know, and vice versa with, with other churches.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

Yep. And you can, you can do that on, uh, that level of, you know, how, and those people at your church. You can even do it, though, with resources. Reach it out to apostolicsundayschool.com. You can reach out to us. Our website's not very cool right now, but you can reach out to info at kidmenbackstage.com. And we're glad to help. Utilize the toolbox. Yeah, utilize the toolbox. That's good. Yeah. Man, that's a podcast right there. Utilize the toolbox. So we kind of covered some of this, but my last bullet there is just some grass is just different. It's not better or worse. So every church is different. Follow your pastor's landscaping specifications.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

Amen. Amen. Don't need no other bids

SPEAKER_01 25:30

from the landscape company. Just follow your pastor's. And so here's the thing is we, every church operates different. Every pastor operates different. We have the luxury of having a pastor that while he doesn't manage our Sunday school at all, and he's not... a micromanager either. He gives us a lot of autonomy. He has a vision of Sunday school, and it's not totally separate. Like, he wants Sunday school to be awesome. In fact, he's the one that kind of started our whole Sunday school the way we do it before he was pastor. The whole one room, you know, ages 5 through 11, Sunday school. So... So I say that because I know that this could be something that's just different. It's not, I mean, yeah, we have the best pastor, but it's not better or worse. It could just be a different leadership style, but maybe your pastor, wherever you are, isn't as like focused on Sunday school. You know, they might be focused on other things because of the season or the landscape of the church, you know, whatever. But don't be afraid to seek his advice or even to, you know, invest in some plans, you know, like saying, OK, here's some ideas and then let me run these by you. You know, I think it's very key to have your pastor. And again, not requiring his time necessarily like, hey, can you sit down with me and help me plan? plan all this out. If he can, great. But even if it's just as a matter of, Hey, I got these cool ideas from, you know, this podcast I heard, whatever. And, uh, what do you think? Yeah. And make sure that you're still traveling in the right direction. Cause the last thing you want to do is, is, uh, be pulling against your leadership, you know?

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Right. You know, and, and don't get your feelings hurt. If, if the pastor says, you know, that's not the way I want to do it. That's right. Exactly. Yeah. So that's, that's, that's one thing that, that, uh, I think neither of us, um, would ever have a problem with. Right. Yeah. You know, I, I think we're pretty supportive and, uh, yeah, any, any, you know, whatever the pastor says. Yeah. It's, it's good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

And yeah. And if your attitude is like, uh, You know, we're doing this as part of the mission for the church. And so if pastor says, hey, I know our pastor would explain. Yes. I mean, he's just that kind. But some pastors may not explain as much. Right. But you have to trust your pastor. Yes. And so he might say, hey, we're going to shut down Sunday school for a while. Ouch. Okay. All right. Yes, sir. You know, I mean, that's, that's, you know, and I get to work very closely with our pastor and we have dialogue and we're in a position where I can give feedback, but it's always understood that his say is the last. It's the last say. It's the last say, you know, and so he, And I know when he's looking for me to feedback or push back even. And when he's not, when it's like, okay, we're, we're done discussing it. Now it's just a decision. Right. And so, um, So there's just different dynamics. But all of that to say, again, that some grass, when you look at other churches, it could be that you're like, oh, I really like that. Let's just take puppet shows, for example. Oh, they did this awesome puppet show. I want to do that. And your pastor might say, I don't ever want to see puppets here in this church. And if he says that, you've got to understand that he's the watchman on the wall. And you're like, yes, sir. Okay, we're going to do something else or do something different.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

And, you know, and he may, he may be seeing something that we're not.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Yeah,

SPEAKER_00 29:53

exactly. So that's, you know, doubly important.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

Yeah. Yeah. So follow your landscape specifications of your pastor and just understand that some grass is just different. It's a different, I should have looked up all those different kinds of grass, you know, that they have.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

Yeah. There's alfalfa, wheat grass, rye grass. Yeah. You know, because it's you know, some of the, some of the best beef is grass fed.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

There you

SPEAKER_00 30:21

go. You

SPEAKER_01 30:21

know?

SPEAKER_00 30:22

Yeah. And,

SPEAKER_01 30:23

uh, yeah. So there's some grass that just, it's awesome. It's green and it looks, it looks cool. You know, there's some churches that, man, they got some stuff going on, but it might be something that is not for your church. Right. You know, and, uh, you know, it might be that, that, it doesn't make that church wrong. It doesn't make the church that, you know, to use our example, that's doing public shows doesn't make them wrong. It works for them. It just, yeah, it's a different, you know, and I mean, there's all kinds of things that can play into that. It could be your location or, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

So it's like, you know, all evangelists aren't the same, you know, they preach out of the same book, but their styles are different. Oh yeah, absolutely. You know, same, same with Sunday school. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Kind of a sentence, makes it simple for me.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, just to kind of recap here. So it's not a competition. We're not comparing ourselves amongst ourselves. We're not trying to be better than that church or wish that we were like that church or, you know, we're trying to compare ourselves to last week, you know, be better than ourselves. Yeah. And then realize what you have. I think that's, you You know, again, always strive to be better, but realize that, hey, you know what? God has blessed us. You know, God has blessed this ministry. Our team, don't take your team for granted. You know? So just, yeah, realize what you have. And let Greener Grass be an inspiration. If you see another church that's got it going on, don't be jealous. Learn something. Learn something. And, you know, with your pastor's blessing, reach out to them. Yeah. You know? Yeah, because iron sharpens iron. Yep. And then some grass is just different. It's not better or worse. So follow your pastor's landscaping instructions. Amen. Amen. All right. Well, I think that's a wrap. Yeah. Appreciate the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

All

SPEAKER_01 32:33

right.