UNKNOWN 0:00

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Welcome to another episode, the place where we talk about kids ministry and take a peek behind the scenes. We try to share a little bit of what we've learned that works for us and some of our failures so you can avoid them. We release a new episode every Friday, and this is your Backstage Pass to see the magic or disaster that happens behind the scenes of our kids ministry. I'm your host, Gabe Baker, and today I'm joined by brother Steve Arter. How's it going? Hey, good. Good evening. Good to be here. Got you back on. It's been a little while. I'm glad. Yeah, I know what I'm

SPEAKER_02 0:47

doing. I'm semi-retired. Yeah,

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we got you back on in the backstage. All right, well, what are we talking about today?

SPEAKER_02 0:56

We're going to talk about making sure we put on our glasses.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Put on our glasses. And when I wrote that, I couldn't remember if you wore glasses or not. Yes, I do. But you do, yeah. So you got your glasses on. I got

SPEAKER_02 1:09

my glasses on.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

I should have wore sunglasses for this. We're testing out video. And I'm sure we have some in the

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Sunday

SPEAKER_00 1:15

school room, too. Yeah, right next to us. Yeah, so you put on your glasses. So how we see things often affects how we act. you know, how we act towards others or whatever. So in youth, one time I did this example. I had a sketch of a woman, but it was drawn three different ways. And so this is kind of hard, you know, to do audio and explain this, but I'm going to try. So it was generally, it was the same sketch, but one of the sketches emphasized lines, you know, a certain way, and another one was more filled out in certain areas and so on. And so then there was a final sketch that kind of combined the two and it was a little more refined. You know, it was more of a... drawing, full-on drawing than just like some sparse sketches, sketch lines. So we had two groups split up and then one group was shown the first sketch and the second displayed the, got the second sketch. And so this kind of gave them a bias towards one way or the other. And then we brought the two groups together into the sanctuary and displayed the final sketch on the screen. And so I was like, okay, so what do you see? And it was hilarious. The two groups The two youth groups were arguing about one group saw this old, ugly woman with a large chin, and the other group saw this attractive young woman with a necklace and a Victorian-style hat. So, again, it's hard to explain via audio. But it was pretty funny because they saw totally different things, but it was because they had seen just a – you know, in the, in each group. And then when they saw the final picture, they, they were, you know, they had certain, I'll just say, quote unquote, glasses on because they had already seen the old woman. So they like, oh yeah, that's the old woman. And the other class had seen it. So anyway, so we have situations like this all the time where we quote, see things dramatically different than our peers, just based on our perspective,

SPEAKER_02 3:19

you know? You know, and so, so that's a, that's a good example. I, you know, I didn't understand it when I first read the outline. Did you have glasses on? I had my old glasses on. I'm waiting for my new ones. But we have so many – kids that come from different backgrounds oh yeah different you know family lives and um different demographics and and sometimes you know we we see them for face value that's true you know and and we don't get uh what's going on behind the scenes what type of family life that they have oh yeah you know we we really um have to put on um you know, literally the gift of discernment sometimes and, and, and, and say, God, help me, help me not to treat every kid the same because every kid has different needs. So, so those glasses, what I'm just seeing right now are just a filter.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Yeah, exactly. You know, so, um, cause you know, like, like, like we talked earlier, you know, there, there might be a kid that's acting up and we don't know why. Um, he, you know, we think, well, he's just a, uh, a, for lack of better terms a bad kid right when we don't know what's going on uh in his home life yeah you know so so that's that's a huge job for us and um you know god help me to have that that spiritual vision if you will to to see what the need is past the face value

SPEAKER_00 5:02

yes you know so so

SPEAKER_02 5:04

now now that i understand you know where we are and where we're going with this uh this is huge not not just for our sunday school but any any sunday school when you know we have you know like i said different demographics and and different family situations it's it's uh sometimes it's heart-wrenching

SPEAKER_01 5:25

oh you

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know and and that that can also cloud your vision

SPEAKER_01 5:29

yeah oh yeah

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because because you can't you can't uh anyways i know we're going to talk a filtering glasses on when when we have so many different types of kids

SPEAKER_00 5:44

oh man yeah I remember I think I might have told this story before on on a podcast but it fits so well here I remember having some help because maybe I didn't have my spiritual discernment up to par but I remember a family that had been coming and their kids I think it was three kids I think two boys and I and a girl, at least that were coming. I think they might've had more than that. But they came and somebody pulled me aside right at the beginning of Sunday school and said, hey, just to let you know, they like barely made it to church this morning, had a huge family fight. The dad was like beaten on the mom in the morning and they barely got out of the house and she, you know, got them to church or whatever. And so that helped because they were kind of Yeah, it makes sense. I had Brother Joey on a couple of podcasts ago. Nice. Yeah. And he said, what did he say? He said, there's always three sides to a story. He said, there's his side and there's her side and then there's the truth. Yeah. That's good. That's good. Is he talking about his relationships? I guess. Yeah. That's great. So, yeah. Anyway, but there's always more than one side to the story. Right. Sure. be any number of reasons. Right. Right. And I could just assume that it's like, ah, they're lazy. They don't want to be apart, you know? Right. And that's a grave error. Sure. You know? Sure. There's a story. Oh, man, I can't remember exactly where I read this, but there's a story about a woman that was in Heathrow Airport in London. And it was just packed. It was really busy. She went into this cafe to wait for her flight. And I can't remember if she sat with somebody at their table or if somebody came up and asked if they could sit because it was so packed and it was just another chair, you know, mind if I sit here. And so anyway, there was this young man that's sitting across from her at this little table in the cafe. And so she had bought a coffee and like a bag of cookies, like a little bag of the cookies they have at the cafe there. So she's reading her book. And she kind of hears like some paper rustling on the table and And to her like shock. I mean, this guy, this young man's well-dressed, you know, he's like in a suit or whatever. He's, he's well-dressed put together and he's reaching in her bag of cookies and he takes one and she's just like, doesn't know what to do. Yeah. She's like, she doesn't know what to do. She doesn't want to make a scene or anything. So she's like, well, maybe I don't, I don't know. Maybe he thinks like hungry or something. So, but, and she's like, maybe he thinks they were sitting here. I I don't know. So she, she grabs one, you know, like kind of like, these are my cookies, you know, but so she grabs one and she's like, okay, well, whatever. Pretty soon again, he, he reaches in and grabs another cookie. Okay. And so she grabs another one and she's just like, she can't believe this guy, the nerve, you know, this guy. And then there's one cookie left. He grabs it, breaks it in half. Yeah. Ita gets up and walks away. She's fuming. She's like, this guy is a jerk. I hope he's on my flight, right? She gets up to gather her stuff. You know, her flight's called. And she grabs her purse. And there in her purse is her cookies.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

She was eating his. That's awesome. That's awesome. And he was kind enough to share his last one with her. That's awesome. So. So, yeah, perspective. And we can make some pretty big decisions on the wrong perspective.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

Yes, we can. And I can attest to that. Yes, I think we have all had moments where we've only seen our side of the story. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00 11:02

yeah, exactly. And we have a natural bias, you know, to see our side of the story, of course. Yeah. Yeah, that story has That's good.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

Can

SPEAKER_00 11:15

I use that? Yes. Um, those are the main ones. I mean, the ones that are, you know, their parents come to church for the most part, they're probably, they're probably okay. And so, um, I mean, you know, there can be stuff going on at home there too. Um, like, okay, here's another example. I remember just, this is just a couple of months ago. Um, there was a, there was a couple of boys. They're my, they're my son's friends. They're like, I don't know, around six ish years old. five, seven, maybe like that. And it was choir time. We have childcare at choir practice. And the child care person was telling him, come on, it's time to go. And he was like kind of fussing and he was kind of crying like he didn't want to. He wanted to go in where his mom was in the sanctuary. And she was kind of getting on to him. Well, he ended up getting in the sanctuary. Well, I found out because his dad wasn't there and he was like supposed to be doing some training for sound or something. Well, I found out their dog had just got hit. And so it was no, you know, it was no wonder. Yes. upset and crying, wanting to be with mom is the family dog had got hit and killed. And so that's, and they're a church kid, you know, so there's, there can always be things going on that we don't see that we don't see. And, you know, in all of this, it doesn't mean that we, you know, It doesn't mean that we don't have any discipline, you know, and we take kids out, you know, it's not every week, but we take kids out probably at least once a month, I would say. We take kids out and say, okay. But we

SPEAKER_02 13:18

have had a pretty good run recently.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

We have, yeah. We have had a really good run. But yeah, sometimes we'll have to take them out and say, okay, you need to go sit with your mom or whatever, because it's just too much, you know. And so we're not saying let them overrun the class. Right, right. But just being mindful of where they're going. And that's why I put the phrase, put on your glasses, is the example is like if you put on, have you ever had sunglasses on and it's a little bit cloudy and you're just like, oh, it's dark and dreary. And you pull your glasses. Yeah. You pull your sunglasses off and it feels bright. Yeah. And nice, even though it's a cloudy day. Yep. Instead of these, these rotten kids. Right. You know, or, um, you know, some people would like for all their kids to sit in class with their hands folded until it's time to clap their hands or something. Oh, that'd be so boring. Yeah. It would be so boring. Right. And so, um, so on the, on the flip side, you, when you do like, we do a lot of interactivity, get up, get out of your benches. We're going to move this stuff. Help us.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

We don't need help, but help us move the benches. Oh, that's chaos. Yeah.

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But it gives them some ownership also of setting up Sunday school and helping with the process.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Yeah. They get to do something. Yeah. And so when you do cool stuff like that, it gets messy. Mm-hmm. But that's what we're supposed to do. We're supposed to deal with the mess. Yeah. Yeah. That's what we're called to do. Yeah. That's the truth. That's the truth. Brother Tyler Hodge, you remember him? I do. From the Children's Ministry Workshop. Well, I mean, he's a pastor. Right. But that's where we met him. He had some statistics that, he has a lot of statistics, it's kind of cool, but he had this, it was like a test or something that somebody had done, like some A-B testing almost, and they asked the church kids, like kids that go to church regularly, their families in the church, they asked them, how would you prefer to be greeted? You have three options. A hug, a A high five or a fist bump. And then they ask kids that come on the bus the same question. You have these three options. So they ask them. And so the church kids, high five or fist bump, pretty even across the board. Yeah. And kids that came on the bus, a hug.

UNKNOWN 16:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Yeah. Like, I can't remember. I don't know for sure, but I want to say it was like 95%. I mean, it was like huge that they wanted a hug. So that lets you know they need love. Yeah. You know? And here's something else that I – so I was just at the Children's Ministry Conference in Redlands, California. So if you don't know about it, it's every April towards the end of the year. You can find the info on Apostolic Sunday School – And it's a great, it's a really great workshop. You missed it this year. I did. But next year. So. But I was just there, and one of the things, Brother Chris Bradshaw was talking, and he helped me with a pair of glasses. This is something that I had not thought of before, is, you know, okay, so I took the step of, I've thought of the kids, you know, maybe having a bad home life or whatever. But I've had the attitude before, like, hey, you don't have to be here. If you don't want to be here, then don't come, you know, kind of, you know. not quite maybe that harsh, but if they're being really bad and like, I can like, they just, you know, are bored out of their mind or whatever. I'm like, Hey, we're having fun here. But yeah, Brother Chris Bradshaw talked about sometimes these kids don't necessarily want to be here. Their parents see the opportunity to get rid of them

SPEAKER_02 17:50

for a couple hours. And you know, that is the truth because I had been in years past involved in the bus ministry and picking kids up. And it's definitely an attitude sometimes of the parents. Let's get, you know, let's get the kids out of here for a couple hours. And that's one of the heartbreaking things. I haven't done it for a couple years, but it's heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

Yeah.

UNKNOWN 18:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

just to feel that when you go pick up the kids. So yeah, I completely understand that.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

Yeah, it opened up my, it kind of was eye-opening for me. So thank you, Brother Chris Bradshaw, because that was, it just kind of let me know, like, yeah, you know, probably quite a few of these kids that, it's not that they don't want to be here necessarily, but they probably didn't want to get up this morning and get dragged, go get dressed and get on the bus and come And then on the flip side, so it kind of gives you a responsibility like, okay, so if you have to be here, I want you to have a good time. Oh,

SPEAKER_01 18:59

yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

I want it to change to where you want to be here.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

You know, and where you tell your friends, you know. So, yeah. So their point of view, there's another note I have is, and this is kind of, I guess, with perspective.

UNKNOWN 19:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

is what are the kids thinking during your Sunday school lesson? And so where I'm coming from with this is I think that sometimes one of the sessions I taught at the seminar, I was saying that I told the story that I've told, we talked about before where a pastor came up and observed our Sunday school. And it's been a while since he's done that, but he came up and he said he loved it. Everything was good. He didn't see anything anybody would complain about. I thought it was all good. But he said, the one thing you need is mics. And he said, the next, you know, financial investment you make is it needs to be mics because it was hard to understand you. So one thing that I try to observe when kids are when we when I'm in the back or whatever, I'm watching the kids and kind of seeing what they're how engaged are they or not, you know, and I've seen it where this is what I talked about in the seminar, too, is I've seen it where that we'll have three actors that's a lot they'll have three actors up front doing something they'll have mics even and I'll see sometimes the kids are a little bit disengaged and Okay. Why? that's one thing. But then when we have, you know, three actors up there, they're doing stuff. I think that one of the biggest reasons for disengagement or boredom is they don't understand. And so if they don't understand what is happening, like, you know, sometimes we'll tell jokes that it's only the adults get it, you know, that nobody gets it. Right. And so, and so if they don't understand what's happening or it's not funny to them, then they're disengaged. Right. And so I try to make sure like when I'm doing... So I'll give an example here. When I do, often I narrate or do the opening for the Bible story. And so for those that don't know, our Bible stories are full acting. And so we have fully costumed actors acting out the whole Bible story, and then often the kids are part of it. But anyway, so I'll do intro as a staff often. So I'm just a staff person doing the intro. But a lot of times I will tell the whole entire Bible story i'll give away all the plot and everything you know not always but most of the time i will tell the whole story and part of the reason for that is when the actors come out and they're doing their thing it's good it's got to be a little bit more rush to keep it exciting so they're not explaining everything you know that moses comes out the burning bush it's just like whoa this bush is on fire but it's not burning up and you know anyway so I explain the story so the kids do have an understanding. And they're like, oh, this is... They connect the dots. This is what's happening right now. You know, oh, that must be Moses, you know, because he just told the story or whatever. And so... That's why I do that. I used to kind of do it because I was hoping the actors would listen and know what to act to, but they don't. They're busy eating candy backstage. But I try to do that so that the kids kind of know what to be looking for and kind of the direction that it's going. Yeah. And then what is engaging to us is not always engaging to kids. That's the truth. I still think of the time when, what was it? Oh, the three Hebrew children getting thrown into the fiery furnace and Brother Aaron making comments about Tony Robbins and walking on fire. Only a few of the staff even got that one because some of our staff is too young to even know about Tony Robbins and Yeah, that was pretty funny. than to be understood. And this is hard. It's really hard. But with staff, it going back to, you know, not being locked into our own version, you know, is if we can try to understand where somebody else is coming from. And that's where my flaw of like, oh, they're lazy or, you know, and they're not. We stereotype. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We stereotype. And so Um, but if we can seek first to understand, and it's kind of like when, uh, you know, Skyline or somebody that's, that's, she's not new anymore, but she, she just kind of got trained on wardrobe, um, management. And if she's asking me a question and I'm rushing around in a hurry, which I'm guilty of is, you know, is for me taking the time to understand what is she, where is she coming from? What is she trying to, you know, accomplish? Because she's asking these questions because she wants to do a good job, right? And so seek first to understand and then to be understood. Then for me to be able to say, okay, I understand why you want to do that, but here's why I don't want that to happen or whatever, you know. Here's why this is how it should be done.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

You know, one of the, you know, when I was in the warehousing industry and, you know, I may have done something for 15 years And then I have to tell someone or show someone how to do that. Whatever job it is, you know, receiving a truck or shipping a truck. It's hard, huh? Yeah. I mean, when it comes second nature and then you have to explain what you do and why you do it and the SWIs that are written and SOPs and you have to actually slow down to think about, okay, why do I do this? Yeah. Yeah. You know, so it does become difficult even though, you know, sky Sister Skylyn has been in Sunday school for a long time. Yeah. As a Sunday school kid. Right, right. Now she's transitioned into a staff member. It's like, why do we do this? And it doesn't, it kind of, you have to go.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

Okay. She's transitioned. So now I need to explain to her why we do it, how to do it instead of, don't you know, you've been in Sunday school all your life. Right. Yeah. That's so good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

So, um, Yeah, and that's the why, what you just mentioned, why. That is a good. Don't

SPEAKER_02 26:56

just do it because I said to do it, but here's why we do it. Why we do it, yeah. There's a reason why we do stuff. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00 27:05

and a lot of it is so intuitive for many of us because we've been in it for so long. Yeah, we just do it. Yeah, and so there's many dynamics, and I, yeah, I struggle with that, but I am trying to teach it. It's just hard. You know, like when I'll switch up something, one thing that I am trying to transfer, you've probably heard me say it even, one thing that I'm trying to transfer over is when you're up front, do your job, whatever you're offering or whatever you're doing, your segment, but keep an eye on the kids. And are they paying attention? Are they engaged? And a lot of times our response is, hey, pay attention. But really, it needs to be like, okay, I need to switch. I need to shock them. It's your fault. Sorry, not sorry. Tyler Hodge.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

Yeah. But that's the truth. It is. You know, we get stuck maybe in the routine of doing stuff the same week after week after week. Yeah. And we don't take into consideration, man, there's more than one side of the story.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Right. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

You know, because we're, I mean, we're always getting new kids and our normal. I don't want to say our normal church kids, but our church family kids. They know how to act. They know the routine. But there's some kids that come on the bus that aren't used to our routine.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Yeah, they walk in. They don't know. Yeah, they

SPEAKER_02 29:06

don't know what's going on. And we have the mindset of, man, don't you know what you're supposed to do? And we find that out when we're doing attendance out front. Yeah. So, yeah, it's every – got to have the glasses on. Got to put on the glasses. Got to put on the glasses. Filter out the noise. Yeah, exactly. If you will. Yeah, that's good. This is a good topic.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Yeah, and that's the biggest thing is just being mindful of – You know, don't get locked in. And I think, so Brother Baglan, Sunday School legend.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

Yes, I remember that name from California.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Yeah, Brother Baglan. Ken Baglan, I think. But yeah, I remember he came to our church. I was pretty young. Did a huge, big production in the sanctuary, like puppets or something, you know. It was really cool. But I remember hearing him talk about, you know, the same thing. No, it's not the kid's fault. We have no control. And I feel like there are people, but probably even within our church, there are people that sometimes want to kind of blame the kids a little bit. Like, oh, the kids are just bad today. And maybe there's phases or whatever, but I think for the most part, it's not, oh, the kids were bad today. It's, well, we were off today. We didn't have it happening like we should have. That's the truth. Yeah. So that's

SPEAKER_02 31:00

most of the time. That's the truth. I mean, you know, there's times when, when the kids are just busy.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

You know, um, but you know, you think, you think about we're, we're not really trained to do what we do. Right. Right. I mean, we're Sunday school teachers, we're actors, you know, think, think about the, the school teachers that deal with that every day. Yeah. And we get it once, you know, four times a month. Yeah. You know, so, um, You know, I'm looking forward to gleaning some time from, you know, you gathering the experts that you fellowship with and come in and training us how you take care of that kid that's just obnoxious. Yeah, yeah. obnoxious adults than it is with kids. With kids, yeah. You know, so just throwing that out there, Brother Baker. Yeah. Let's get us some training in here. Yes,

SPEAKER_00 32:09

yes. Yeah, I, yeah, definitely. Well, we are going to have Brother Booker here. Yes. In a few months. Awesome. So that'll be good. And he's going to do a staff training when he's here. But yeah, so, and one of the biggest things out of this, we're out of time, but one of the biggest things out of this is having a love for kids. If that can be, if the one thing you get out of this, and we'll recap here, but one thing you get out of this is those glasses. They need to be love glasses. You can have a love for the kids so that everything you do, even when you have to discipline, you have to take them out to the sanctuary. It's through the lens of love. It changes how you do everything. It changes how you discipline them, changes how you approach them. And in turn, Yeah. Especially when it comes time for, you know, altar. Yeah. The important stuff.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

That's

SPEAKER_00 33:06

true. So just to recap, there's more to one side of the story, his side, her side, and the truth. That's good. That's good. And so, you know, be careful not to get locked into your own version of the story. And then where are they coming from? Just remember that sometimes the kids that behave the worst are the ones that actually need the most love. Mm-hmm. And then their point of view, what are kids thinking? And so when you are – I don't know how everybody does drama and skits like we do. We're pretty heavy on drama, but – Even if you're telling a Bible story, what are kids thinking? Try to think of that. If you're telling a Bible story, if you're sitting in a chair and telling a Bible story for 20 minutes, you might not be engaging those kids. And you might can if you're really good. But

SPEAKER_02 34:01

give them a Roman soldier's hat.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Yeah, something. Get them involved. Some voice inflection. Yeah, so yeah, definitely think of their point. of view. And then apply this to staff, too, is we've got to translate our vision so that it transfers over. Yes, agreed. Yeah. All right, well, I think that's a wrap. Yeah, good.